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Wet Behind The Ears
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Post by 0 on May 7, 2008 8:10:51 GMT
@matt, it's the sad truth.
Gone are the days when record labels were owned by one person. Where that person made all the decisions. Where bands were given time to develop at a labels expense. Development contracts are very few and far between these days. What happens with these contracts is that a band is taken by a label into the studio to record, maybe a full album, maybe just half a dozen tracks, to see if the band has what it takes. Whether they are marketable or not.
The band are featured on the labels show case gigs up and down the country, normally in front of marketing type, music journo etc etc.
At the end of the day the label either signs the band on a full contract or says thank you very much for your time but no thanks, here is your recordings (certain terms and conditions apply)
But as I said, these contract don't get offered very often, if at all, these days. The problem being that labels are no longer owned by single individuals but are limited companies, with many share holders. Share holders who in reality don't care about your music, but have invested their money into a business and want to see a return (profit) on their investment. That doesn't necessarily mean all labels are evil. It's business and if you truly want a band to succeed you need to treat that as a business. Each band member is a share holder, and of course wants to see a return on his/her investment.
These days you have to have the full package to attract the right attention. You wouldn't set up a market stall selling the latest fashion trousers but without the zip/fly. It doesn't matter who fashionable they are, if incomplete, very few people would want to buy them. The same is true of a band, you may have a great sound, brilliant song writing talent but if you have no zipper a label see that as a weakness and moves on to the next band who have it all, the ones with the metaphorical zipper!
Don't be fooled by the press who love to tell us that artists are now doing it themselves to achieve success. You can climb so far on your own but sooner or later you are going to come up against the corporate side of music. The truth is labels still invest in bands but those bands have got to have shown they are prepared to be part of the music business machine. Play ball with them and you may even score, that's the difference between the Premiership of music and the Vauxhall Conference league. Who do you want to be, Manchester United/Chelsea/Liverpool or Wrexham?
Don't believe the hype, it's a marketing tool.
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Post by neilcrud on May 7, 2008 10:51:58 GMT
There are little sub-labels dotted around within sub-scenes, dedicated to a particular genre and run by music enthusiasts. When I was signed to Delerium Records (with Sons of Selina), the company boss (Richard Allen) had a core of about 3000 people who he knew would buy anything Delerium released, that guarantee kept the label running for about 15 years until the internet ended it all. So anything over and above those sales was a bonus - our first album shifted 4500 copies the second about 2000, but it was all over by then. Richard managed to give up working and ran the label for a living for about 8 years, although being Porcupine Tree's manager was his best income. He tells me he's unemployed now!!!
SO little labels do exist out there for bands, and they are an excellent platform to get yourselves on the ladder so to speak, and the twitchy majors don't have to go to the board of directors with the next big thing cos the indies are doing the dog work for them.
I would love to run a full time label, but I know these things cost money (ask Adam Walton about his Whipcord label) - I did Secrets of Sound for a while - released the first two Sons of Selina singles, both of which sold enough to break even (first one made the Belgian charts!!!), also did a compilation EP that sold well in Germany (again breaking even) and then released 2 Pocket Venus EPs, the first of which got daytime Radio One airplay, and along with managing them aswell cost me a lovely round sum of SEVEN FUCKING GRAND - so despite calls from various people to be cajoled into releasing LPs and stuff, you'll understand my reluctance. There's nothing more than I'd like to do than release albums by Global Parasite, Anti-Virus, Deadlight Spiral, 4 Sticks, Johnny Horizontal, Streams, Sona etc etc... but at the moment the money is little tight - although typing this does make that little voice in the back of my head say 'Go on Crud...'
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Post by markwj on May 7, 2008 11:43:48 GMT
yeah props to the propagandhi! a band that seems to operate moderately succesfully with a high level of ethics in spite of it all collectively, i massively appreciate all the efforts that those involved in music make locally to help each other out. the informality of it, to me, enables people to give/take what suits them, their level and their ambitions without judging things (entirely) on what it costs. the fact that many of of us through experiences both good and bad as still so deeply in love with this music drug is life-affirming dunc, it brings a tear or joy to hear you are still listening to the murky world of finite death but i don't get what you are on about in terms of it's relation to commercial music. I did not set out to make something that was deliberately "unlistenable", just something that expressed me and my corrupted tastes and co-incidentally appealed to a few people around the world. Yeah, i could have been pretty certain that it wasn't going to sell loads but being in the fortunate position of not needing to live off it it is quite liberating to not have to tailor the music at all. the next one is going to be poptastic in comparison though...
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TerryHomespun
Wet Behind The Ears
"Maybe yes, Maybe no,...Maybe go Fuck Yourself"
Posts: 27
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Post by TerryHomespun on May 7, 2008 13:24:37 GMT
I think i'll do what the KLF did! go mad and burn anything i ever make (you can see the vid on youtube) "the justified and ancients of moo moo land" crackin!!! you all have good points but, its all relevant to life, ie... if you have well off friends and family , are pretty, have a bick dick, wear nice clothes and some how still keep the appearance of being modest!,... things go well for you! but if you have none of the above its hard work! that goes for all walks of life. i dont think we need another lable round here! or in the world, thats not the problem. we are half signed to an indie lable but still want to be called unsigned (coz we are) like GD said it is the product and image now not what lable you are on, even we have to dress like gay cunts out of mightey boosh and play london pretending we are nice guys. its cheesey but what people round here need to do is (not be friends) but support the scene as a collective, we play wrexham and are inundated with people wanting the ep's singles etc emailing us, same in other cities,but then in our hometown no one bothers, (we know most people) and the rest are too jealouse to even listen and see if they would like it! its all hard work and some luck, i think i disagree with GD in some respects, and unless you are playing to schoolkids (all spends no brains) you will have trouble selling your stuff, its not just selling cds after gigs its about having everything else in place at once. so if you go to london, get airplay before you go there and posters up in london and then take cds, merch you might pay for a few things , but who keeps accounts? its like being a fucking scrap man for beer money! so we could in theory sell 500 albums in say 10-20 gigs and then what ? who keeps track? what does it matter except for a bit of fuel money and maybe money to buy more cd stocks! its all up hill from here i think! AND DONT BELIEVE ANYONE!... its ALL ABOUT MONEY!!! i cant believe people are trying to say its not!? we are working on building sites and other jobs to buy in our own van and get cash for our tour!....life lesson ; if someone put a few grand into us we would already be on the road! but cash is holding back our planning! IT IS ALL ABOUT MONEY!!! i am not a failed musician or bitter , i am looking at a future in music and will always be doing this. but why people say its about work? i dont know? we have slogged and slogged until ....yep...we couldnt afford to gig at a loss under cunt promo agencies. anyone wanna buy an album??? hahaha
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Post by Duncan on May 7, 2008 15:42:26 GMT
dunc, it brings a tear or joy to hear you are still listening to the murky world of finite death but i don't get what you are on about in terms of it's relation to commercial music. I think that's what makes it so good. First and foremost it's really dark, angry music with electronic drums and heavy guitars - I always like that combination and it's very effective in practice. Second, it doesn't sound like you were trying to please a potential audience and just did what you wanted to do. In that respect, it not only skipped the need to be commercial, it skipped cosmetic alteration altogether. As a result, it's a very honest recording. I don't know whether that sums it up, but I find Godflesh and Fudge Tunnel aesthetically pleasing for the same reasons. The fact that all profit from the recording was donated to charity highlighted selflessness and honesty. It's hard to knock that sort of thing.
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Post by tomleucine on May 7, 2008 16:37:10 GMT
No one likes to play to empty rooms but we have done on more than one occasion... consequently we don't get paid as the promoters say we need to bring in a certain amount of people bu if we have never played in that city/town you just get caught in a cycle... Can't get a gig becuase you have no experience in that place, get a gig and few people come because they don't know you. I agree with there being no point in taking all your mates half way across the country when you could set up in your living room and play the exact same set for cheap!
Recently we have been contacting other bands rather than promoters, renting somewhere and playing to their fans in exchange for us sorting them out. At the same time as wanting to play to a lot of people are they the right people if you do want to get noticed?
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TerryHomespun
Wet Behind The Ears
"Maybe yes, Maybe no,...Maybe go Fuck Yourself"
Posts: 27
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Post by TerryHomespun on May 8, 2008 15:04:44 GMT
leucine? ... i think i know your guitarist Adam!? (my mates lil bro) ... you guys are gonna have it the worst! there were still some venues left when we started, so we cut our teeth at the westshore club, the bistro, and the Tiv (when it was big, and still good) what GD cant say is... most the people involved in music now are out to rip you off! managers/agents are the worst of the worst (one in particular) i cant say who but he's on myspace all the time saying "send your stuff to me" this is bullshit. we had 3 record deal offers last year, and turned them all down. anyone that says send me your stuff, or offers you a deal over the net is a FAKE. there are loads of failed musicians now managing thier kids bands and/or guising as managers/promoters, yet there is no call for them! its not like there's 50 bands round here going "if only we had someone to sit on a pc promoting us for a fee" isnt that what all bands are doing for themselves? Tom how do you plan to do gig swaps when you dont have a venue down here worth another band playing? and not to put anyone off but last year we went from chester, wrexham, liverpool,blackpool,nottingham,winsford,manchester, london etc all on gig swaps and so called promotional auditions. ie fill my club 3 times and then you headline. all it got us was rep and myspace fans. no cash and now my manager is saying oh if we dont hit the live ciruits soon people will forget! (kinda true) so off we will go again (this time armed with our debut album and merch) to do it all over again but this time backed by our very own crooked industry mogul hahaha ( we love him really) anyway this place has got tame and nicey nicey now, so i am off for a while. i'll come back to post updates about the band and news. and maybe to have a good old rant when needs be. biglove people Terry [Homespun] www.myspace.com/homespuntb**************Debut album now on itunes and www.sexreadymindcontrol.comget your limited edition black vinyl disc and artwork now!*********************** **************ALL ON LINKS ON OUR MYSPACE PAGE*************************
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Post by Duncan on May 8, 2008 15:48:29 GMT
most the people involved in music now are out to rip you off! Sadly, that's very true. I'd say a considerable proportion of people who make money from the music industry, make it off the back of musicians. Don't overlook managers too eagerly though. Often, there is a problem if the manager doesn't 100% believe in the act they're promoting. Most of the advice from books on the subject will tell you to employ someone you trust on a major basis - usually a friend of the band. Whilst a lot of these books are questionable at best, I'd have to agree with that particular code of practice. There are people on this forum who have made a great job of managing bands. My main truck is with the current 'pay to play' policy that many promoters employ. I've always hated that. These guys are called 'promoters', ergo they should be out promoting. It seems a little bit rich to just phone load of bands and tell them if they can't get 20 people through the door, they're history. Obviously, if no-one turns up, the gig wasn't 'promoted' enough. Therefore, the promoter hasn't promoted and is no longer worthy of the label 'promoter'. These particular promoters all too often blame the bands for low turn outs. This begs the question - 'If you knew the band were rubbish, why on earth did you book them?' The answer often lies more in a desire to get punters buying beer, than actually caring about music or promoting music in the community. I was amused by Neil Crud's story about 4Q being booked as an R&B band. When the venue complained on the night, it was revealed that R&B stood for 'rubbish and bollocks'. The twats hadn't even bothered to listen to the band before they booked them. They weren't promoters, they were idiots. Moreover, many promoters in cities will actually go as far as blacklisting acts who don't draw in enough people and handing their names out to other venues. Those people are scum and they are not worthy of their job title. They spend more time destroying bands than advertising anything. I should add that there are many good promoters out there. Some of the events at Hendre Hall, have been very well attended and provided a good evening out for a lot of people, but promoters who rip musicians off should be more closely monitored.
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Wet Behind The Ears
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Post by 0 on May 8, 2008 16:19:51 GMT
...and on the subject of managers, don't decide you need a manager just because you can't get bookings, look for a booking agent.
A good manager is a cross between your big brother, a good businessman and a whore. A good manager doesn't bullshit you. He hypes you to everybody else but should always tell the artist the truth. A good manager knows when to keep quiet too.
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TerryHomespun
Wet Behind The Ears
"Maybe yes, Maybe no,...Maybe go Fuck Yourself"
Posts: 27
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Post by TerryHomespun on May 8, 2008 16:28:05 GMT
nail on the head! and i love the word "ergo" i havent had a need to use it for a while haha the real irony is the word "motion" is part of promotion! and the word "and " is in band! as in.. "and" what are you gonna do while i am playing, writing and recording my music? most promoters are as you say unworthy of the title. but the last few good ones are turning to the darkside ,..gotta compete with idiot masses. i might look into starting a band alliance against promoters! ie groups of established bands setting up nights instead of promos, this'll iradicate the shit 1st time gig bands (tune in please) and it'll generate actual cash for the bands playing.
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Post by cool de la on May 8, 2008 18:58:24 GMT
i think everyone on here is talking vanilla bullshit! only playing!
can you guess who it is?
hahahahaha
viva la holco!!!!!!!
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TerryHomespun
Wet Behind The Ears
"Maybe yes, Maybe no,...Maybe go Fuck Yourself"
Posts: 27
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Post by TerryHomespun on May 8, 2008 21:39:56 GMT
ahha hows it goin mate? i got all series 6! "long ass balls" haha. interesting turn around on the music front though... i spoke to a promoter (one of the good ones) and there are venues coming soon. i only trust 2 people in the music biz round here: my manager, and this guy,.. so there should be 2 active rock venues local in the next few months with real PA back rig and real promotion. watch this space, no doubt the guy will come on and announce when bookings start. als o news on a venue in wrexham NOT the central station. these have all been planned way before this thread on here so we should see some great live nights sprouting up here soon. also...BANDS - look into the outdoor festival in prestatyn,...get in there now, it don't seem like ozfest but,.... its gonna be packed and great pr ,... i know we are gonna be booked to play it and the black alps maybe? and some big beatles band? but it'll be great promo and good for selling your cds and merch ... thats what we'll be doin! also ma man martin williams is running local rags now so contact him @ the visitor for reviews etc, (well better than dave jones was) viva la spun
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Post by Matt on May 8, 2008 21:44:18 GMT
the reality of all this makes me feel sick. its fucking disgusting. fuck im glad the punk doesnt work that way and reading all this makes me more than fucking proud and happy to belong to something that cuts out that CRAP...and CRAP it indeed is. The labels that keep it real can put you all over the world without any of that above bullshit.
minge fringe
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TerryHomespun
Wet Behind The Ears
"Maybe yes, Maybe no,...Maybe go Fuck Yourself"
Posts: 27
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Post by TerryHomespun on May 8, 2008 21:45:13 GMT
A good manager is a cross between your big brother, a good businessman and a whore. so we are your pimps! i like that! ;D turn some tricks Ho haha
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Post by Remo on May 9, 2008 8:50:43 GMT
i might look into starting a band alliance against promoters! ie groups of established bands setting up nights instead of promos, this'll iradicate the shit 1st time gig bands (tune in please) and it'll generate actual cash for the bands playing. [/quote] Der Bomber tried this last summer by starting up The Pigeon Fiasco on Saturday nights in the Offas Tavern. It ran through the summer holidays and had some fairly good turnouts but we felt we could expand into something much bigger and the only way to do that was to put it in rhyl but no club owner in rhyl was willing to give up his Saturday night trance for an independantly run disco. If anybody would like to lend a hand in running it this summer give us a shout. www.myspace.com/thepigeonfiasco
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